Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 03:00:02 -0500 (EST) 
From: postmaster@projects.cac.psu.edu 
To: gms@psu.edu, ritter@ist.psu.edu 
Subject: Volano Transcript 
 

<Frank Ritter> wecome to ist110
<gms> hi frank
<Frank Ritter> heloooo. I wAS getting my receipt, not for reimbursement, but posterity
<gms> ok - so far just me and one student
<gms> it is only 7:45 here
<Frank Ritter> it's about that time here +6, or Zulu +1
<gms> ok - am helping the student get into the room...
<gms> welcome back
<jjl141> morning dr R.
<Ritter> indeed. I was clearning up windows and went too far.
<jjl141> gray and cool here...there?
<gms> same - but not bad for march
<Ritter> indeed, gray and cool, but quite pleasent, coats not required but locals are wearing them. the english would not.
<gms> nor would i
<Ritter> what fonts are you using? I'm using a courior made small about 4 times
<gms> not sure -0 let me check
<gms> times roman normal
<jjl141> people are bleeding in slowly
<Ritter> It seems like a momentus occasion. Noone would quite believe me that I was off to teach class *during* the conference.
<gms> students are starting to get online
<aaron> i'm here
<rxr30> i'm asleep
<aaron> i wish i was
<gms> you should have invited the other conference attendees (:-
<Ritter> I can't tell if you fall asleep.
<aaron> interesting . . .
<rxr30> yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
<kss171> i'm in my dorm room
<Ritter> ok, none of that 'yawwnn'ing in class, do that in your physcial space.
<Ritter> oh, cool. It sounds like we have people in three physical spaces.
<mcl158> OK if I sweat in class? It's hot in the classroom again
<aaron> yeah, can we do something about that?
<Ed> someone open the door
<kss171> i went to the psu game and we stormed th court. i sprained my ankle pretty bad when i got trampled on by everyone
<Ed> thanks for opening the door
<kss171> so i decided not to walk to class
<rad15> Hi all
<aaron> i watched the game. it was a good game, but we're going to have a tough game next round vs. motre dame
<kss171> yea
<kss171> i might go to NYC and see it
<kss171> i really want to
<aaron> or notre dame, depending on how you spell it
<Ritter> I have it having gone 8am local time, or as we can say 1300 zulu which is when this class stars
<aaron> i can't, i have a test that night
<kss171> i have a test on wednesday
<ernie> a
<Ritter> Can one of you confirm that it's time there?
<aaron> yeah, it's about that time
<aaron> 8:05
<Ritter> Ok.
<Ritter> Well, I'd like to welcome you all to ist110, now really in the new info age
<aaron> i feel so special
<jjl141> do we get extra credit for being trend setters?
<rmb203> good morning everyone
<jjl141> or a tuition break?
<aaron> or at least some donuts
<Ed> how bout some money?
<Ritter> I just spoke with the librarian here who is renting me a machine for 1 guilder for 15 min for 3 hours.
<cmd228> ok guys
<Ed> what is a guilder?
<aaron> we say dollar here
<Ritter> A guilder is about 50 cents, and is the local currancy
<kss171> where are you
<Ritter> So, as always, I'd like to tell a joke to wake you up.
<jjl141> how many guilders for a cup of coffee?
<jjl141> please no jokes
<rad15> uh oh
<aaron> 4?
<Ritter> A man walked into a bar last night here in gronigen
<Ritter> and said
<Ritter> 'ouch'
<rad15> ouch
<aaron> and said ow?
<steve> ouch
<Ritter> Ok, so it was predictable. I'll get the local word for the next class.
<Ritter> I'll try to lead this class as a teacher, but as you can note, there are lots of cues missing
<Ed> that wasn't funny
<Ed> boooooooooooooooooooooo
<Ritter> And I can't type as fast as I can talk, etc.
<Ed> j/k
<Ritter> you may wish to make notes for later use about differneces you see
<Ritter> I'd like to look at chat rooms per se, as well as the usual class stuff
<aaron> fantastic
<ernie> my dog's breathe smells like dogfood
<Ritter> So, some annoucnemtns
<rad15> good observation there ernie
<Ritter> most marks are now up on the spreadsheets on the web, check them
<jjl141> if this is a real chat room...do we all look like movie stars?
<aaron> i do
<kss171> i do too
<Ritter> social apsects assignemnt is the next major assignment, and should be paid heed to and you should start to worry about it.
<rad15> I pity da fool
<Ed> wow i can't believe you met Mr. T
<Ed> that is so cool
<aaron> some people call me face
<Ritter> And there is a talk on friday that you are encouraged to attend, strongly. The dean will be there and there *may* be free food. there is at least extra credit.
<steve> FODD
<steve> FOOD
<rxr30> Free Food
<aaron> what time?
<rmb203> free food!
<rad15> The A-Team is/was a quality show
<DeeBow> where?
<steve> murdock
<aaron> hannibal
<Ed> where and when is that talk on friday?
<Ritter> The time was previously announced, but let me bring it up on my laptop here.
<aaron> wow, you'e so awesome
<ernie> tvland has ateam
<jjl141> we are talking about the A-team here
<bxf130> who cares about the A-team?
<rad15> so does nick at nite
<jjl141> quality education at its best
<ernie> but fandamonium
<aaron> what about mcguyver?
<rxr30> Its not HBO then
<rad15> heluva show
<aaron> also a great show
<Ed> Why did we have to come to class, we could have done this from home
<ernie> ch50 I think at 12pm
<jjl141> i prefer the Man-Show
<rxr30> that's true
<jjl141> i am at home
<rad15> everyday at 2 oclock mcgyver on usa
<aaron> sweet
<Ed> jerk
<jrc14> I would be sleeping right now
<aaron> hey, watch the language. this is all being recorded
<rad15> ED
<ernie> that's a swear word?
<aaron> no
<jjl141> ok when does this get educational?
<Ed> sorry that was insensative
<Ritter> I'm not finding it in my email, but I sent this out previously.
<aaron> hopefully never
<Ritter> I know that it was around 1-230 on Friday in Keller building.
<Ritter> Does anyone have that email?
<aaron> alright, i think i can make it
<jjl141> Dr. S will give us the specifics on the talk...right?
<aaron> but maybe not
<steve> 130
<aaron> we'll see
<rmb203> i think its 1:30-2:30
<DeeBow> I found it.
<aaron> nice
<jjl141> ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
<gms> yes - but only in person
<kss171> it's 1:30 to 2:30
<neetij> 104 keller
<kss171> 104 keller
<DeeBow> Its from 1:30 to 2:30 in 104
<DeeBow> yeah
<Ritter> Ok, found it too. Spot on.
<DeeBow> you all got it
<aaron> i got it
<Ritter> Let me take up John's question.
<aaron> which was?
<Ritter> I thought you should all be in the same room in case this didn't work out very well.
<jjl141> there goes my anonymity
<aaron> ha ha
<Ritter> If there was a problem, Gerry Santoro is there, and if you had problems Like I had, of getting text in, it would allow things to work better.
<Ritter> In the fullness of time, I don't think you have to be in the same room
<aaron> so you're saying we should let you talk more?
<rad15> noooooooooooo
<Ritter> Let me also take up Aaron's comment about talking.
<Ritter> I find it a bit distracting with your comments, but I was in fact hoping for such
<aaron> to illustrate a point
<Ritter> fooling around. The medium allows this, and indeed lets me illustrate a point.
<ernie> test
<ernie> hmm
<Ritter> There is a distal way to make your comments, which is open up chat prvate rooms, which I encourage you to do.
<jjl141> thia aint AOL ernie
<rad15> i think ernie has lost it
<steve> interesting
<steve> hmm
<ernie> what is AOL?
<Ritter> Are there any questions before I go on with my introduction and then into actual material?
<steve> where are u again?
<neetij> but then dr r, the chat room wont illustrate wht it has
<aaron> i thought i had one, and then i forgot
<Ritter> I will be pausing longer because it takes me longer to type and it's like workting with gloves on in some sense.
<aaron> understandable
<steve> WHER ARE U??
<Ritter> Besides the where are you question, which I defer to my intro, neetij, could you expand on your question
<aaron> whoa, easy big fella
<kss171> ha
<steve> ZULU
<steve> got ya
<ernie> Ritter: What city are you in?
<Ritter> Ok, I assume that Neetij's comment was regarding where I am.
<neetij> well...u asked for less interference on our part...but then u couldn't point out the problems faced by the chat room....
<Ritter> Neetij, ok, save thost problems for now, and we'll come back to them later in the class.
<Ritter> [more intro]
<neetij> dr. santoro also said tht...
<Ritter> When I was a grad student
<bxf130> this is class?
<neetij> hehe
<Ritter> I got yelled at twice by my supervisor (ok, my second supervisor, my first did it a lot)
<steve> ....
<Ritter> the first time was for not dating my papers after being told
<Ritter> I now date my papers
<mcl158> didn't we already hear this joke?
<Ritter> The second time was when I was to install software for a conference in the netherlands
<neetij> but u said this yesterday
<Ritter> he was going to gronigen to get a honorary degree and give a series of lecgures
<Ritter> and demo some software, icnlduing what I wrote
<DeeBow> those gloves are really hard to type with i guess
<Ritter> He asked how it would get installed because it was experimental and only I knew about it very much.
<Ritter> I said that I would just go and do it
<aaron> did you use telnet?
<Ritter> he exploded, how, why, indeed who would pay for it
<Ritter> And indeed, I said that I would go by telnet and already had.
<steve> i think he did
<steve> wow
<Ritter> .
<Ed> did you order a royale with cheese?
<aaron> was that a joke?
<Ritter> So, it is entirely appropriate that I am 100 yards from the Royal Univ. of Gronigen
<Ritter> where that happend in a library's internet lab
<aaron> isn't it ironic?
<Ritter> comign back, with people wondering lcoally how I have left afterlunch to teach a class
<Ritter> So that's where I'm at
<Ritter> in the netherlands at a conference on cognitive modelling
<kss171> sweet
<steve> lucky
<steve> i was in canada once
<Ritter> you can see more on my home page, www.frankritter.com click on international conference on cognitive modleling
<aaron> i've been to england and italy
<ernie> yeah, this client is unstable
<DeeBow> Outside no doubt?
<aaron> yeah ernie
<ernie> well mine keeps crashing
<Ed> i think ernie is unstable
<Ritter> And Steve, and Aaron, and others, please keep your comments on topic, or take it outside to a private chat room.
<ernie> muhahah
<Ritter> Gerry can show you how to pass notes in class.
<aaron> sorry mr. ritter
<DeeBow> he has already done so
<ernie> yeah get a room
<Ritter> Because this is the first time for me, and a new media, no offense taken, and
<Ritter> because this media is sorta wierd, I am in fact glad that you were a bit loud so we can later comment on it. Gerry, for all I know, has put you up to it.
<aaron> hey, alright!
<Ritter> ok.
<gms> who me? (:-)
<DeeBow> how bout we get the ball rolling?
<Ritter> So, there is one more announcment that we can do before content
<ernie> this is pretty tame chatting
<jjl141> lame
<Ritter> Was anyone redy to do their resouce/current affairs talk, and wants to do it in the chat room
<Ritter> ?
<jjl141> no talk here
<DeeBow> woah
<aaron> you told me to wait until tuesdayu
<Ed> that would be kind of hard wouldn't it Dr. Ritter?
<steve> same
<aaron> or tuesday
<kss171> yea me too
<Ritter> Well, it would be harder. Much less material woudl come out, but it would be done, and
<Ritter> an important aspect would happen
<Ritter> that of putting our joint attention to it.
<aaron> i see . . .
<Ritter> But it's like asking some one to present it as a dance or in foreign language or via video tape, all wich influence the material
<jrc14> a dance?
<Ritter> Presenting yourself in a media is a skill. I doubt if this will ever be a skill needed by most of you, but clearly I have a tone and Ernie has a different tone and Gerry has yet a nother stance.
<bxf130> but, how would u time it?
<Ritter> public speaking is another skill, but the current affairs presentations also have content and are intended to bring to *your* attention useful resources. Sometimes this does not happen, but soemtimes, like the review of hte book on office2000, it really work.
<Ritter> bxf130 that's a good question. it would deserve more time than 2 min. how about 500 words? or a url?
<jjl141> gerry said we can go
<gms> no i didn't
<Ritter> I belive that he did not, and you are trying things on.
<Ritter> and you got caught out twice.
<Ritter> I think we have enough material about chat rooms that I'd like to go onto some content, or at least try
<steve> fire away
<DeeBow> by all means
<Ritter> Please reserve your questions/comments about chat rooms until about 5 'till, when we will return to them.
<Ritter> The nominal topic today is further stuff on AI.
<Ritter> My first question to you all then, is did you notice a simularity between haag figure 5-10 and eliza's organistion that I put up?
<Ritter> I open the floor to you, and give you time to get out haag if necessary.
<Ritter> figure 5-10 was about expert systems
<aaron> ok, i got kicked off
<Ritter> Do any of you in fact have Haag with you?
<Ed> i think there is one book between all of us
<jrc14> what is haag
<aaron> this has got to stop
<Robin> but of course -- what else would we use this text for?
<jim11> yes
<rmb203> nope
<jrc14> just kidding
<kss171> yes
<aaron> i meant getting kicked off
<Ritter> let me rephras, do any of you have the course text book, referred to by the last name of the first author, haag, with you in the class room?
<aaron> yes
<aaron> i do
<kss171> yea
<jjl141> page 187
<Ritter> Aaron, if you would, tell them what figure 5-10 is, and we can compare/contrast wtih eliza
<jjl141> i don't recall a chart for eliza
<aaron> yeah, go to page 187
<aaron> but we can't draw a connection between this and eliza
<praj> i don't think this is the right chart
<jjl141> is fig 5-10 the right one?
<Ed> dr ritter...what does that figure have to do with eliza, that figure deals with same city/state/etc meetings
<gms> frank - you mean this picture http://cac.psu.edu/~santoro/110sp00/05-14.jpg
<neetij> i dont think 5.10 is the figure you're talkin about
<gms> i think 5-14 is the one he means
<aaron> yeah, pg 196
<Robin> that would seem to make more sense...
<jjl141> page 196
<praj> yeah, that's it
<gms> i have fig 5-14 on the screen
<Ritter> The descirption of elisa I refer to is of the class syllabus and is called something like notes on elise
<Ritter> And it sounds like I got the wrong figure number, in this case truly accidently
<Ritter> the figure is about expert systems.
<aaron> right
<jjl141> ok we are there
<Ritter> ok, so I wanted comments about elisa and expert systems
<jjl141> eliza seemed like a big dumb looping mecahnism
<Ritter> I'm thinking of using elisa as an example expert system for this class and for the future class
<Ed> i think that both eliza and the expert system take information from the user and then feed it back throuh an interface
<Ritter> in language, logic and discrete math
<Ritter> good, ed, I like that summary and hope to use that in the future.
<Ritter> John, I don't think dumb is quite appropriate here, there was some intelligence, not much admittedly, and looping mechanism is quite true, it ran in a loop, which expert systms sometimes and sometimes not, do
<jjl141> eliza seemed like it would be good at a oarty...but is far too primitive to be useful in its current form
<praj> to become useful, eliza would have to develop a much larger vocabulary
<bxf130> 'oarty', is that a word?
<jjl141> yes. responses are very limited
<jjl141> party...oooooooops
<Ed> sometimes you can get eliza is a loop where it just keeps asking you why....that is something that would not happen in an expert system
<Ritter> John, with what you know about elisa, when you say it's dumb, do you mean that the mechanism(s) are inharently too weak, or that the use fo them an dthe knowledge in elisa were too weak. We talk here (in gronigen at this conference about this being the architecgure or the model).
<jjl141> the o is next to the p
<jrc14> that would not be a fun party to me
<praj> dr. ritter, in terms of the technical aspect...is eliza just an if-them-else program? e.g. if a certain question is asked w/ these input parameters...ask this question as the otput...
<jjl141> choice one...very weak
<Ritter> Ed, I would not myself say that ES would not get in loop, but that they should not, and that most would not at this stage if they are public.
<Ritter> praj, it includes if-then-else rules. If that makes it that if-then-else, then yes.
<Robin> but doesn't it need more to go toward being an ES?
<jjl141> isn't all programming basically if-then-else?
<Ritter> But, but, but. if then -else rules can be organised around higher strutures giving more repsresentaitonal power, so I don't think its that weak on that level.
<cmd228> z
<Ritter> I think that you can see elisa as a weak type of expert system. It is definately arguable, but the domain is easy and the model is easy, and I think that makes it a good intro.
<gms> also a program can be written to re-write parts of itself - creating new rules on the fly
<Ritter> The testing of drugs for molecular stucture has also been used as an intro to Es, but I find the domain hard and the translation from rule to knoweldge and how it works just hard to explain to experts let alone first years.
<Ritter> The difference between expert systems and so-called programming or procedural programming is the organisation.
<Ritter> ES are set up to represent knowledge as rules, (they are themselves programs), but programs are more free form but not designed to represent human knowledge specifically. they do include choice points, but might be seen as less modular structure.
<neetij> for elisa i noticed the user has to be in state of mind....you ave to be in one a few moods...you can't be aggresive or the resulting 'conversation' leads nowhere....an expert system would have to take tht into account...the human factor so to speak
<steve> and as we all can see you cannot be negative with eliza
<Ritter> neetij: keep that thought. It's not commonly held in the ES community, but would be worth exploring in a masters degree or final year project.
<aaron> oooooooooooooo
<jjl141> i brought eliza to its knees by just asking bigger questions
<Ritter> ES assume a pretty interested and cooperative user.
<jjl141> the program eventually just started spitting back gobbildy gook
<Ritter> [pregnet pause]
<aaron> is that how you spell that?
<Ritter> [not at all]
<aaron> are you expecting?
<jjl141> expectant pause
<Ritter> [a bit of a pause, I'm expecting to change topic and am trying to get your attention and let the thoughts on expert systems peter out]
<aaron> congratultions
<Robin> pregnant. take it from one who knows...
<aaron> i can't type
<Ritter> Next topic. did you read the ieee article on GAs, and if so, any comments, insights WORTH SHARING with the class that you would like to put forward?
<aaron> doh!
<Ed> when did we get that?
<jjl141> GA's? refresh my memory
<kew156> genetic algorithms
<DeeBow> last class wasnt it?
<Ritter> I handed out in the midterm, with the midterm to many if not all of you, an article taken from IEEE spectrum on genetic algorithms.
<neetij> does elisa have any computer 'easter eggs'?
<jjl141> i read it...over my head
<Ritter> I have since handed out copies to those who seem to have lost it.
<Robin> yeah, it ws slow going..
<bxf130> same here
<jjl141> no...i was slow...it was going
<DeeBow> "Evolutionary Computation"?
<praj> how far are they into realizing workable GA's? one's that they could implement in a real world situation?
<Ritter> It is inded also called evolutionary computing sometimes.
<Ritter> Let me take the first question/comment. why was it slow going?
<jjl141> its a very technical subject
<Ritter> was it lack of the metaphor, dense prose, long? big words?
<kew156> I actually really liked the article - blame in on used to being a biology major so their examples were pretty clear to me, but I can see how it would be if you didn't get that stuff
<Robin> I've had me courses, and it still took awhile to get through the jargon
<Ritter> I did choose it because as an ai technique it's easy to explain and I hope thus understand.
<praj> do computer scientists who study ai also have to take courses in human psychology, etc?
<jjl141> i had a hard time picturing examples in "my mind's eye"
<Ritter> The basic idea, which is the point of reading it, is that you take solutions, test them, choose some that worked well, bang them together in an analgoue to sexual reproduction, and then test the resulting children answers.
<aaron> huh . . .
<kss171> interesting
<bxf130> that's sick
<Ritter> praj: generally, yes, it's worthwhile to take some psyhcology to study that intelligent system
<jrc14> do you have to be 18 to be in here
<Ed> i'm underage....spare me dr ritter :)
<Ritter> the analgoue of sexual reproduction, to be clear, is that the dna level where genes are combined,
<DeeBow> nice recovery doc
<Ritter> in the case of answers, it may be taking height from one solution and width from another.
<bxf130> PARENTAL ADVISORY EXPLICIT CONTENT
<neetij> i dont understand the last thought....the one bout height and width
<Ritter> If you have questions, please see me in a chat room after class, or wait around in this one. or see me in class on tuesday. I rather like this AI technique and as they go, it is easy enough to learn. A* search, on the other hand, is not as approachable.
<praj> but to be effective, it should be able to take possibly dozens of solutions and combine them...
<Robin> okay, i'll bite -- what is A* search?
<Ed> don't bite hard
<Ritter> [expectant pause]
<jjl141> when it comes to something like finding a protein that can latch onto an aids virus...how do they know it worked?
<Robin> did I miss something?
<kss171> i did too
<Ritter> [ask about A* and about GAs and about biology of virus which I know nothing about when we have more bandwidth]
<Ritter> ************************************
<steve> o boy
<Ritter> so we were able to cover about 2/3 of my leading questions today
<rxr30> ?
<Ritter> [the ** isto indicate a segment in the transcript, please allow me alone to use it]
<Ritter> The last topic this morning is an inclass exercise.
<Ritter> [groan]
<jjl141> granted
<neetij> ditto
<aaron> yay
<DeeBow> [groan]
<Ed> wooohoo
<rad15> ugh
<rxr30> duh
<bxf130> time to go?
<Ed> everyone comment before we start
<neetij> slkdsklsdlksdsdklsdkksldklsdlksdlksdkllkklsdklskdlksklsdklsdlkslksdlksldsklds
<Robin> oh man...no breaks...
<neetij> soory bout tht
<aaron> is this the one that we won't want to miss?
<Ritter> I would like you in your groups to reflect on this as a class room. You can be negative, but should be specific.
<neetij> keyboard and hand met for tooo long
<jjl141> do we comment in here?
<DeeBow> yeah
<DeeBow> just out loud or what?
<aaron> ritter wouldn't be able to hear you
<aaron> that was a joke
<aaron> obviously not a good one
<steve> ha
<Ed> yeah really aaron..stop trying
<kss171> katherine walder!!
<aaron> ouch
<DeeBow> I didnt fall asleep when using the chat room thingie
<Ed> see that wasn't a good one either
<kew156> what?
<kss171> kew?
<Ritter> I would like an email from each group (listing names of course, date gets added automatically) noting like the prvious web exercise, 4 ways that this is better than a classroom per se, and 4 ways that it is worse. I'll be in the room and available for chat rooms.
<kew156> yah
<kss171> hey, i'm in my dorm room
<DeeBow> thats what im looking for
<Ed> so i guess there was a reason for coming
<rmb203> is my group in here?
<kew156> renee?
<rmb203> yes
<Ed> HEY GROUP...GET OVER HERE
<Ed> NOW
<bxf130> rxr30 start typing
<jjl141> my first thought is...i will have a hard time paying PSU REAL tuition when my sone enrolls in virtual classrooms
<jjl141> son
<Robin> virtual money for virtual classes
<Ritter> You can work in the main chat room, which will be difficult, you could take your group into a private chat room or series of chat rooms, or you can work together.
<aaron> or we can go to sleep . . .um, i mean . . .
<neetij> grp 2?....probably none...
<jrc14> Ricardo is lazy
<rxr30> Yeah RIght
<Ritter> If you want me to answer while you are working, you should address me in your note.
<Ritter> otherwise, I'll let you carry on.
<jrc14> time to leave
<rxr30> Time
<jrc14> logging off...
<Ed> logging off.....later y'all
<mcl158> See you tuesday.
<Ritter> comments should be emailed before you leave, if possible. which I assuem is possible.
<DeeBow> Well, its been a slice of heaven......
<aaron> let's do this everyday
<aaron> or not
<aaron> i'll get it to you as soon as i can, dr. ritter
<DeeBow> But i have pressing matters to attend to
<DeeBow> I wish i was in amsterdam
<aaron> i don't have a disc on me now, so i can't necessarily access e-mail now
<aaron> i have to go back to slee[
<aaron> or sleep
<aaron> but you'll get it, don't you be worried
<Ritter> In order to get the most fair effect of being here, I would like the people in class, who were in the chat room, get the points.
<aaron> alright, can do
<aaron> i'll include the names of our group members
<aaron> it'll all work out
<Ritter> I wish I was in Amsterdam, but I'm in north Netherlands, I won't actually be in Amsterdam this trip, althought he train skirted it on the way up north east.
<aaron> aw, poor baby. oh wait, you're still not here
<jjl141> have a good weekend
<jim11> < > hum will you be trying this virtual class next year. you got more class interaction but not enough material could be cover
<aaron> yes, everybody have a good weekend
<aaron> i'm out
<kew156> have a nice weekend all, byes :-)
<kss171> bye everybody
<Alan> good morning all
<Ritter> good morning. I'm here. gerry and I were chatting in a nother room.
<Mitchell> woooo hoooo
<Anita> hello
<mgd7410> hey
<Ritter> I know that my watch is fast, I also know that you may need time to get settled. If people are having trouble getting into the chat room, please help them locally.
<Ritter> we should start in 5 min. by my watch.
<Ritter> from *...NOW.
<Mitchell> it's 0945 by my watch
<Ritter> or as we say, 1445 zulu
<Ritter> We're a bit down on numbers. any comments on where people are at? trouble logging in?
<Anita> no, people are not in class yet...
<DeJoseph> How's europe doing?
<Ritter> dejoseph: it's a pleasure being here.
<Michael E.> do you know what time it is in Nigeria?
<Ritter> Michael, I suspect it's about 1550 ZULU, which is not a reference to Africa, but to Greenwich mean time, or ZULO or +0 from greenwish mean time.
<Ritter> You all are, by the way, at -5 zulu time.
<Ritter> *********************************
<Joseph Sadley> -5?
<Ritter> Ok, let's start.
<Ritter> I'd like to welcome you to IST110, taught via chat room.
<Kirk> he means we should have started 5 min ago
<Joseph Sadley> thanks
<DeJoseph> I see
<Ritter> we had a very productive time last hour, covering some real material and got some experience of chat rooms.
<Ritter> as a sociotechnical system.
<Ritter> I'll introduce the class as always, cover soem mateiral, and we'll come back to chat rooms.
<Ritter> the *** introduce my changes
<Ritter> of topics
<darth vador> I am your father
<Ritter> The topics are about how to hold a class in a chat room and about AI.
<Ritter> darth, please be quiet
<Ritter> about class, the marks are up, we belive, you should and can check them.
<Ritter> the social aspect class assignment is the next homework,
<Ritter> and I'd again encourage you to attend the lecture tomorrow for extracredit or for your social aspects asignment.
<Ritter> Any questions at this point?
<mgd7410> what time is the lecture tomorrow?
<Joseph Sadley> Will there be any other oportunities for lectures--I have to go out of town
<Mitchell> Is it raining?
<Ritter> The lecture is from 130 to 230 in room 104 of keller
<Alan> ..how should we go about asking questions?
<Alan> is it alrite to interrupt you?
<Ritter> there is some rumour of free food before, but it's just my suggestion on monday.
<Mitchell> what's for lunch today
<Mitchell> I'm hungry
<Joseph Sadley> I hope toasted cheese
<Patricia Reynolds> Can I ask about the social aspect assignment?
<Ritter> Joe: there may be other lectures such as that for extra credit, but none currently scheduled.
<Joseph Sadley> thanks
<Ritter> alan, as you just did worked fine. If you ask 'em, I'll try to answer them.
<Patricia Reynolds> What do you mean by it being in the next homework?
<Alan> ok, cool
<Ritter> Gerry had some more formal protocols, but I've not taken the opportunity to pass them out because I thought you should help evolve them.
<Alan> ...group nine is listed as doing the current events today...is that pushed to tuesday now?
<Joseph Sadley> also group 10
<Alan> yeah
<Kirk> are they all being pushed back or grouped together on other days
<Ritter> Patricia if you look on the syllabus, the next big piece of work is the social aspects assignment. I thought I shoudl bring your Ie the classes attention to it
<Mitchell> I like chicken nuggets
<Ritter> as for the social aspects talks, I 'm happy to consider hearing one in here if and only if the presentaers want to do that.
<Alan> I don't think I can type that fast to get everything in in 2 minutes ^_^
<Ritter> Well, we would have to allow more time, or have you post your comments as a url.
<Ritter> My tone in person is that this is not a great idea, but I did want the groups to think about it.
<Kirk> Possibly if someone made an interactive webpage for their discussion, then it would work
<Ritter> the other reality is that the classes were numbered wrong, class 19 I think was initially missing or duplicated, and adding it back in made this class, which was supposed to be skipped, made it appear in the talking schedule.
<Ritter> Kirk: indeed.
<Ritter> Any further questions about general problems, etc before we move on to my introdution and then to AI, GA and Eliza?
<Kirk> none here
<DeJoseph> nope
<JAZ> You're in Amsterdam? How's that?
<Alan> I was there a couple summers ago....the culture is interesting...legal drugs...
<Ritter> Oh, and I nottice that some of your aliases are tied into the class database. you may wish to keep that in mind if someone types a lot next to you and then you see it appear, and if you are that person you may wish to log out and come back in.
<Ritter> And I am not in Amsterdam. I flew to schipol though.
<Ritter> ********** Ok. new topic ***************************************
<Mitchell> what was the last topic?
<Ritter> Please indulge me. This is somewhat historic for me. (the last topic was class annoucements by the way)
<Ritter> My phd supervisor yelled at me twice, only. Once was for
<Mitchell> alright I was lost
<Ritter> not dating my papers after being told quite a few time. This I have shared with you
<Ritter> I hope.
<Todd Peterson> Confusion gets larger, as more people are involved. So with this class size, this isn't too bad. It's when you start approaching 100 or more that it really gets convaluted.
<Ritter> The second time was when he was going to the royal university of gronigen, rug, to get an
<Ritter> honary doctorate, he asked me to make my software easy to install. I just
<Mitchell> would you like fries with that
<Ritter> said that I would go there and install it for him.
<Ritter> He blustered? correct me, with how? just who will pay for it? students often
<Ritter> think that supervisors will send them on trips.
<Ritter> well, I responded, since I already had, that I would go
<Ritter> via telnet.
<Ritter> well, here I am. I'm in gronigen, and I thought that chat rooms and virtual presence
<Ritter> all lined up fairly nicely with a confernce that he would have been at and in some sense helped found.
<Ritter> it is, however, a very imperfect media, but one that falls squarely in our trianlge of users, tech and information.
<Ritter> we'll have an inclass exercise at the end,so I encourage you to keep notes, such as kirk has sent me in a private chat room, that Gerry has thoughts on, and htat Todd has shared with us already.
<Ritter> all are perfectly fine ways to use this room as far as I know today.
<JAZ> How do you create a private chatroom
<Ritter> jaz, you click on the name on the right twice.
<JAZ> thanks
<Ritter> gerry will also help you do this if you get stuck. that's why you met together this first time. next time you could work in your room.
<JAZ> well actually ...
<Joseph Sadley> thanks that would be great
<DeJoseph> Do you think that chat rooms are going to totally replace meetings in the future?
<Kirk> These java applets like Volano that seem to be freely distributed to people for their webpages, how do you know that the applet isn't sending data to a hidden person/hack/source somewhere else that isn't in the room?
<Ritter> dejoseph. I don't think so. But it serves us today, and there are populations and classes that make lots of sense.
<Ritter> kirk: the applet in this case is doing that, Gerry and I will get a copy of the transcript today.
<Ritter> I should also offer, if your groups want to work with this room outside of class to meet, you are welcoem to use it.
<Mitchell> Instant messenger is just as easy
<Joseph Sadley> I think that using a chat room would solve a lot of meeting problems
<JAZ> Yeah, our group has met over instant messanger rather than actually meeting physically
<dtl130> using chat rooms is good cause you don't gotta shower
<Joseph Sadley> With busy schedules it really helpful
<Todd Peterson> IRC is a better equivalent
<DeJoseph> I don't think anything can replace face to face communication.
<dtl130> hey how come i have no name next to my messages?
<Joseph Sadley> you don't see your own name
<Joseph Sadley> only others
<dtl130> i see my name and everyone else
<Kirk> At my old tech support job, we used this type of system while on the phone with a customer to ask supervisors/other techs questions, thus not having to put the customer on hold.
<dtl130> hmm this is strange
<Kirk> you will not see your name next to your text on your screen when you type
<dtl130> ohhhhh
<Kirk> most chat rooms assume that since you typed it, why would you need to see your name next too it on your screen
<dtl130> thanks kirk
<dtl130> because some people are just slow like that
<dtl130> heheh
<Ritter> there are lots of good comments. some of the class is about passing hints on, which you have done. So let's come back to chatrooms at about 20 till 11 your time. Let's move on to the topic topic. you will notice a slower pace from me because of the slwoer media.
<Ritter> ********************************************************
<Kirk> nah, its a different system to IM, so that's why it may seem strange in some aspects.
<Ritter> that's me indicating a new topic
<Ritter> Did any of you notice simularities between figure 5-14 in Haag and my notes on eliza?
<Ritter> if so, feel free to jump in with comments.
<Ritter> jumping in here will not be as disruptive as with your voice.
<Alan> the same...
<Ritter> Gerry might put this back up on the projector at this point, or if I was on a real machine htat I could control I would email it or pull up the reference myself.
<Ritter> Alan, could you elaborate?
<Kirk> it is up
<gms> i have fig 5-14 on the screen
<Awood> both seem to go thru a loop
<Joseph Sadley> Yes I noticed the same thins
<Joseph Sadley> g
<Ritter> awood: that is true. both go through a loop. this is a simplicity of haag, more advanced ES go asychronous, ie those that run powerplants.
<Joseph Sadley> asychronous?
<Ritter> Do you think Elisa is a good example of a simple expert system?
<Ritter> Joseph: asychronously. synchrnously means that two or more things run at the same pace or hooked to each other,
<Ritter> asynchronously is thus not locked to each other. Elisa is synchronous, you talk, she talks, you talk, she talks.
<Joseph Sadley> thanks
<Ritter> here we are mixed. some synchronous, some not.
<Alan> it could be... the user asks a question via the UI, which then goes to the inference engine, which accesses the knowledge base and checks for compatible sentence structures, then responds via the explanation module
<Ritter> so back on topic, Elias, good example or not worthwhile?
<Ritter> Alan, yes, good explanation, and shows synchronous internal behavior.
<Alan> the program tiself would have to have been created by a knowledge engineer who would determine what sort of things eliza could respond to
<JAZ> It looks like a good model but i'm not sure I understand the explanation model part of the diagram
<Elias> good
<DeJoseph> what does the inference engine do?
<Kirk> When it first came out, yes, it was probably a good "expert system", but by today's standards it is quite simplistic.
<Awood> I agree with Kirk on that one
<Alan> he didn't say a good expert system, he asked if it counted as a simple expert system
<Ritter> jaz: I can't see the figure, I left Haag at home (although I'm near the Hague...), but I suspect that the explanation module referred to is for getting an explanation of why the expert systems did what it did.
<Elias> yes, good example
<Ritter> that's a hot topic in ES, how do you get real experts to trust them, and that's usually by having htem say, I asked about the family because they mentioned their mother.
<gms> http://cac.psu.edu/~santoro/110sp00/05-14.jpg
<Todd Peterson> The rudimentaries for Eliza qualify, it's the database part of it that complicates things. Storage capacity determines how much Eliza can do.
<Alan> what's ES?
<Alan> oh expert system
<Alan> nm
<Elias> nm? what if i dont know what that means?
<Ritter> Todd: indeed, storage capacity counts, but eliza's is esentially infinate. you can write more rules for her, and it will still run.
<Joseph Sadley> never mind
<Kirk> Eliza is limited though, as if your question doesn't meet any of the rules, it spits out a generic answer.
<Todd Peterson> But wouldn't the context in which it's presented limit it (storage, bandwidth, etc..) to some extent?
<Ritter> Kirk- good point, but also true for most ES (I use ES to save typing). You just notice it.
<dhm116> I noticed that when asking eliza a question, if more than 1 person sent the question in at once, each person might not see what he/she wrote, but instead what another person wrote
<Kirk> It would be better if it could take in multiple keywords and combine them as a person can....possibly interpreting their meanings differently in different contexts.
<JAZ> glitch in that version of the program dhm116
<Kirk> course if we can do this, we'll be rich as we've solved the ultimate AI problem
<Ritter> later versions of elisa had a whole set of default responses, which made it less obvious. in the case of a medical system, I would guess it would be to infuse liquids and give broad specturm antibiotics.
<DeJoseph> how does elisa adapt to slang and different dialects?
<Ritter> Kirk-- its that represention you call for that is what AI artificial intellience is looking for and researching.
<Ritter> dejoseph, elisa as the program currently stands, does not adapt. the programmer has to adapt it.
<Ritter> by writing new rules, and new small functions to define word equivalency sets.
<Ritter> I hope to make it an exercise in ist230, language logic and discrete math. it involved pattern matching and if-then rules
<DeJoseph> so right now, it's very black and white. Like search engines
<Ritter> DeJ: yes, elisa is black and white, but I wouldn't call serach enginers black and white, they do some more complex analysis. ok, as best as supported by this media, I think we've covered elisa and expert systems.
<Ritter> If there are further questions on elisa, I'll take them in private rooms, or here after class. or in class tuesday.
<Ritter> I've rented this machine until 15 past 5 so there is time.
<Elias> rented?
<Ritter> Let's move onto the Genetic algorithms GA article that I handed out in class and at the exam
<Ritter> **************************************************************************
<Ritter> yes, rented, I'm in the public library in gronigen
<Ritter> I have a couple of discussion questions about it. the first is did you understand it,
<Ritter> and if not, can I or someone in your group help you to understand it?
<Ritter> and if there are common problems, we can get some efficiency by answering them all at once.
<Ritter> So, any questions?
<Kirk> yes, it's basically saying that we are driving technology towards a computer system that can learn from it's mistakes and become smarter with each new lesson learned.
<Ritter> or, any comments about the article, including contrasting it with Haag's explanation of the same topic.
<Ritter> Kirk, when you say it's, you mean the IEEE or Haag?
<Kirk> I was referring to GA in general
<Kirk> and neural networks
<Ritter> And some of you have been quiet, or not typing (:>), here's your chance to be online.
<Ritter> I'm particulary interested if you are picking up the details of this particular algorithm, or are you just getting from Haag that 'its exciting and powerful'?
<Elias> that is pretty much all haag says about any topic
<DeJoseph> I don't think that a computer that smart is a good idea
<Todd Peterson> But then you bring up the idea of, what if the computer already is that smart, and we just don't know it yet?
<Todd Peterson> (kept hidden from us)
<dhm116> mine's not, I have to yell at it every day
<Kirk> Definitely don't want to build "SkyNet" as was done in the Terminator movies.....controlling the worlds defense networks.
<DeJoseph> I think they already do
<Joseph Sadley> knowing how to correct your mistakes is the first step into making machines that can take the place of many human functions
<Ritter> DeJ: the GA programs don't particularly scare me. they tend to help find better train or plane routes, or optimise schedules, such as when to offer ist110 and math140 so that students can take both and not get scheudle conflicts.
<Kirk> but not learning and fighting back on us as was done in the movies
<DeJoseph> and take he place of humans
<DeJoseph> t
<Joseph Sadley> Formal regualtions need to be established on what industries and in what situations these computers can be used in
<Alan> genetic algorithms are more about evolving solutions not necessarily making the machine more human
<Colleen> but Dr. Ritter isn't that like saying that cloning will only be used for organ replacement? The expansion of this is inevitable
<Todd Peterson> But if you replace a human, does that free up the human to pursue something else? (Like train to be an astronaut, or go paint and become the next picasso)
<DeJoseph> but it can also lead to unemployment for people who don't want to be astronauts etc.
<Ritter> Ok. [sigh] I'm assuming that the IEEE was understandable enough, or that you don't care to 'chat' about it, or that your questions are not clear enough to type into this weird media. I do wish to return to some of the other questions you raise, which are important, just that we are out of time on tha ttopic today. that was my third question as well. We have
<Joseph Sadley> it would push the common worker out of a job
<dhm116> if computers became more human-life, and you're assuming they would replace humans in certain jobs, wouldn't they basically be slaves then?
<Ritter> sadly: we can address that question as well, but in reality, so will backhoes, which while they did for a while, they have not long term done so.
<Ritter> I would like to move on to the inclass exercise while we still have time.
<Ritter> ************************************************
<Joseph Sadley> these machines are much more advanced
<Ritter> You have warmed up a bit, which is good.
<Joseph Sadley> than a backhoe
<Ritter> I would like each of the groups email me comments like with the web based class questions.
<Ritter> thais, the four good things about this media, and four bad things
<Ritter> if you can note how to ameliorate the problems, that would be good too.
<Alan> should we do them individually or 4 and 4 for each group?
<Ritter> in the email note who the email is from, you do not have to date it,
<dtl130> in the assigned groups?
<Ritter> one email for and from each group, sent today.
<Ritter> from the assigned groups.
<Joseph Sadley> anytime today
<Ritter> anytime today, midnight your local time.
<Ritter> I'm also assuming that you may be able to email from the classroom.
<Ritter> if you wish to turn it in on paper, that's fine too.
<Ritter> You can work next to each other, you can use chat rooms, you can use the main room to chosoe.
<Alan> anyone in group 9 here?
<Michael E.> what if most of the group is not here?
<Ritter> You should work with as much as your group as there is. If it's just you, well, then just you get the point.
<Alan> group 9? anyone else there?
<DeJoseph> Anything else before you take Europe by storm?
<Ritter> I think that things are fine.
<DeJoseph> alright then
<luvaluva> I'm in 9
<Ritter> It looks like my watch is about on time now, not fast, and that it's nearly 11 am there.
<Alan> where should we email?
<Todd Peterson> Pretty claose, 5 min left by our time.
<Ritter> Turn in your sheets to Gerry if he's still there and you have it on paper, or take them to Rider, or email them today.
<Ritter> email to ritter@ist.psu.edu
<DeJoseph> take care and good luck
<Alan> so we should write about the + and _ of chat rooms as media right?
<Ritter> alan -- exactly.
<Alan> okie dokie
<Ritter> The point of the exercise is two=fold. once to note who attended class and got to see it, and also to get you to think and to let me learn from your thinking, so three fold.
<Kirk> Drink an Heinken for me over there....see you next week
<Ritter> I am happy to help such good students are you Kirk.
<Ritter> let me just note that current affairs for today are pushed back to tuesday next, the schedule will have to be revised a bit as well.
<Ritter> which will be indicated by further announcements.
<dtl130> okay i guess thats it
<dtl130> bye everyone. have a nice weekend
<Alan> adios
<Ritter> thanks for coming.
<Alan> have fun in Europe..I might be going this summer... it's really nice over there
<Alan> the atmosphere is very pleasant
<Alan> have a g'day!
<Ritter> indeed. mostly this trip is work and jet lag, but I really like it.
<Ritter> room count =1 , and I'm off to a poster session. Thanks for your help in setting this up Gerry.
<Ritter> I think we should do this every semester in ist110, and if we can, for every section.
<Ritter> as an outlet, it helps with research and travel
<Ritter> and as an exmaple of a information media, it's superb.
<Ritter> it would also help this semester with scheduling our CES colleagues to come to UP for committee meetings.
<Ritter> which is what ist is about.
<Ritter> Cheers,
<Ritter> Frank
<Ritter> -30-